Corneliu Brudașcu. Mihai Pop. Timeea Lelik.

Corneliu Brudașcu

b. 1937, Romanian artist

Mihai Pop: Those late '60s influences tend towards what would later be assimilated as a kind of pop art in your work; where did they come from and how did you come upon them? The fact that they seem to fit very well into the thorough schooling you had is another issue, but where did that kind of image come from, what kind of influences did you have?

Cornel Brudașcu: They came from 'outside', more from hearsay somehow.

MP: Can you be more specific?

CB: You would hear about pop art, I saw some stuff too... Then there was some American exhibition...

Timeea Lelik: Do you mean the one at the Museum of Art in '69 called "The Disappearance and Reappearance of the Image, American painting after 1945"?

MP: Did you see that one?

CB: Yes. 

MP: Was it in Cluj too?

CB: Yes, at the gallery on March 6th Street (currently Iuliu Maniu), it was a good spot.

MP: And how did you relate to it? What was the feeling – I imagine it was sensational – when you saw the works?

CB: I thought I could do something like that myself, especially since I was hearing – and I think it was true – that the American artists would print the images on canvas, but the technical methods of that time aren't used anymore, and then they would paint on top, covering it with paint. So it was 'cheating' somehow, let's call it that. I used to divide the frame up in order to construct it... I would draw squares on the surface, I'd copy and paint the image photo-realistically, that was the difference. I was happier with it that way.

MP: Yes, because there wasn't a machine doing half the work, it was all by hand and talent.

CB: Exactly! It was very realist painting, but also colorful, in the beginning I wasn't too excited about it, but Ana Lupaș and Mircea (Spătaru) encouraged me, saying "look, you have the hand for it, you can do this kind of compositions"...

MP: ... So it was also their push, how did that work? Did you talk about it in the studio?

CB: Yes, we were here in the studio all day, we'd meet and chat, and they were probably better informed than I was because they sometimes went to Bucharest and met other artists in those days. 

MP: But what did you like best from the American Exhibition?

CB: They were all good, but particularly the 3 or 4 or more meter canvases.

MP: Formally, there are some similarities with some of these American painters, but they aren't fully your point of reference, are they?

CB: No, no. 

MP: It's more of a combination, I think, some things are undecided, but then they either stick to each individual's structure or they don't, right? But what drew you to the subjects you chose, like The Guitarist or the portrait of Ioane Munteanu?

CB: In the case of The Guitarist I liked that both the composition and the image were beautiful, in a purist sense. It was a black and white image, actually, and I did it in color. 

MP: And where did you find that image?

CB: In a French newspaper that had a music column, I think it was called "The World Speeding". 

TL: Did you exhibit the works you did at the time or were they only for yourself?

CB: Well, they did get exhibited. There were county exhibitions, at the "Painting County" – and I exhibited sculpture on March 6th Street. It was really something, of course!

TL: What reaction did you get from the public?

CB: I think they liked the paintings because they were neat, like a photo, they were more innovative than traditional painting.

TL: Were there others starting to paint like you, reproducing or taking inspiration from your style?

CB: Nicolae Maniu had some paintings like this too.

MP: You also shared a studio and influences, both ways, it was inevitable somehow. But didn't these things also relate to what you were working with? In his case, the materials were almost fetishized, good brushes, good canvas, technical perfection. 

CB: Yes, and his compositions are also busier; he would cut up and combine the images he had, probably from magazines. 

TL: But you didn't only use images from magazines/newspapers, you also painted construction sites and a portrait of Traian Vuia, for example. 

CB: Those were from a newspaper too. 

TL: But were the workers locals?

CB: It was a picture of a construction site somewhere in the country. 

TL: You basically adapted pop art imagery to a local subject, since American pop art didn't depict builders at work, they had objects, consumerism, it was something different from what you did, transposing the technique onto local subjects. 

CB: Yes.

MP: Relating to the previous question, I think it's interesting that there were others popping up at the time who wanted to paint like you; for example, I remember seeing some paintings by Mircea Baciu, the graphic artist, at (Mircea) Țoca's house and they looked like copies of yours. Recently, I saw a painting of Michael the Brave on the internet, in a style just like yours, but modest, which made me think you were already influencing others with those paintings. Do you mind being imitated?

CB: It didn't bother me. 

TL: And the works in this style but with local themes were promoted on official channels as well?

CB: Yes, they were accepted. 

MP: Which is also apparent because they were featured in Art Magazine, purchased by the County Council for Culture, and reached museums. "The Workers" are in the Cluj Museum, which also has "Studio Friends", and they were on show at the time, which means that influence was effective, a Western influence, but one that melded well with the world of that time. 

CB: Yes, because there wasn't anything abstract about it, it was an accepted realism, with themes to match.

TL: How many of this kind of works did you make? I know about there being around 10.

CB: Not that many. There's another one called "The Nădejde Brothers", who were freedom fighters, a medium-sized painting with two figures. It was on show and then purchased. Then, in Zalău, there's the one of Traian Vuia and a composition with Ceaușescu.

MP: ... that Ceaușescu composition also has a kind of reddish, crepuscular light, right? I mean, the palette itself is quite eccentric, somehow. 

CB: Yes. 

TL: How come you didn't make more? I'm only now realizing that most of these paintings are in museums, so actually they were quite successful.

CB: I think I'd had enough and I thought, when do I stop?...

MP: Did you see it as a dead end?

CB: Yes, I thought it was a dead and and it was something a little foreign, essentially, though in the beginning I liked it when I saw the results. Then I decided to return to the way I was painting before.

TL: So it was more of an experiment?

CB: It was an experiment, of course!

MP: How long did this so-called experiment last?

CB: Starting in 1970, about 3 or 4 years. 

MP: And you also have that painting you said you lost, but still have a photo slide of, "The Boy with the Flame".

(Aside) Mihai Pop to Timeea Lelik: "The Maestro said he could paint it again, just as it was, anytime". The Maestro: "I'll try, yes!".

TL: And how did these works pay when they were purchased? Did they pay well?

CB: Oh no, not well, especially here, in Cluj, they didn't. When I worked for the Pioneers' Council in Bucharest or for the Communist Youth Union, I was better paid. And then, of course, gradually, I abandoned this style. 

MP: Maestro, I remember that at the same time as the American Exhibition I also found a brochure for the Russian Art Exhibition in Romania (they probably wanted to balance things out somehow), but my question is whether you see these two poles with a critical eye. Where were you anchoring yourself, was there an inner debate like "am I too American, doing this kind of work"? Or, on the contrary, did you enjoy leaving the academism you were taught? Did the American exhibition offer something far greater, a new horizon, enthusiasm?

CB: Yes, all these things that were new to us brought enthusiasm because we lived in isolation, under a roof that didn't let information in, and suddenly new horizons were open to us. There was a new picture of what painting could be, of how things could be different. 

MP: But what did those you cared about, like professor Ciupe, for example, say when they saw these works of yours at the "Painting County"?

CB: We weren't close to our teachers like students are today, we didn't intersect that much, there was a distance there, and even though Ciupe appreciated me, I never heard anything from him about those paintings. 

MP: What about someone like Ladea?

CB: He died sooner. But he was more incisive. 

MP: When you saw your own paintings in the two rooms at Tate Modern in the "The World Goes Pop" exhibition in London, how did you relate to them after all those years, what did you think of them?

CB: First off, I was impressed. I said to myself that, after all, it's no small thing to be exhibited there. The paintings were impeccably presented and there was a lot of information at the entrance: catalogues, flyers, even a poster with "The Guitarist", I was among the ones who got attention.

TL: What did you think of the other works at the Tate exhibition? There were a few artists that I, for one, hadn't necessarily heard of before, like the ones from Brazil and Japan, which surprised me because they were coming from so far away.

CB: They had a lot of space and, of course, a lot of artists, which can be confusing. But everything was up to standard and, generally speaking, that kind of exhibition has a status you can't ignore. 

TL: Did you know at the time that there were artists who also employed the idea of pop art in other countries outside of Europe, on other continents?

CB: I reckoned there had to be others apart from the Americans. 

MP: On the other hand, there's that famous incident with the letter you still have from Ion Grigorescu, where he invited you to participate in a hyperrealism-themed exhibition in 1974 alongside him and others, precisely on the platform of this new type of image. 

CB: Yes!

MP: Around that time there's also the Iulian Mereuță article about you and Ion Grigorescu in Art Magazine, the two instances of this new trend. 

CB: Yes, yes. 

MP: You told me you didn't remember responding to Ion Grigorescu.

CB: I didn't end up responding to him, I don't know why. 

MP: The exhibition he was proposing later turned into one of the exhibitions he curated in those days with the title "New Image Problems", if I'm not mistaken; I once asked Mr. Grigorescu about you not replying to his letter and, implicitly, to his invitation, and he said: "Well, yes, he didn't answer because at the time some were more important than others!".

CB: Really?! (laughs)

MP: But when the art critics from Bucharest came around, because surely Mrs. Lupaș would bring people over, and they'd see your photorealist works, how did they relate to them? Did they start discussions or elicit interest?

CB: They were interested, yes. 

MP: Do you remember any visit in particular?

CB: I remember Petru Comarnescu in the '70s, who noticed "The Guitarist" when I exhibited it. 

MP: Where was it shown then?

CB: At the Dalles Hall because there was a national exhibition of the kind they used to put on back then and Comarnescu took note of me. Meaning he saw the painting and wrote, I don't remember in what art publication, that he liked it and that the image was interesting, a new approach and technique. He was one of the older critics, he probably had different views on painting, but he got it too.

Cluj, April 2023