Napoleon Tiron. ”If I spoke English, I would have gone to America immediately, a lot sooner.”

Napoleon Tiron

b. 1935, Romanian artist

EK: So it wasn't an influence, but encouragement.

NT:...someone was supposed to have seen the American exhibition at Dalles Hall and it was possible that a work was in Romania. 

EK: Which one at Dalles Hall? The one from '69, The Disappearance and Reappearance of the Image in American Art?

NT: No. When the exhibition took place, the organizers gave Ceaușescu a painting as a present.

EK: Gifted it to Ceaușescu?

NT: Yes! A work. 

EK: Did you know this at the time?

NT: Let me tell you. At the Revolution, I'm sorry we didn't have photographs, Răzvan Teodorescu came from Ceaușescu's, they'd gone in...

EK: Yes, and robbed the place.

NT: ...around ten Roma of various sizes, one dressed in Mrs. Ceaușescu's robe, slippers on his feet, each of them took whatever they could get their hands on. They were all dressed colorfully. One of them was in his pajamas — Ceaușescu's.

EK: Did you see them on television? Or where did you see them?

NT: They came to the television station to ask someone from TV to come. And Răzvan Teodorescu came down with his trench coat open and these Roma at his side, they walked down the street like that, and the street was full. It was extraordinary, an extraordinary scene. 

EK: And they got to...?

NT: I don't know what they did. I didn't care. Those kids, the Roma, took him there to see what was in there. The art critic lady...

EK: Ruxandra Garofan.

NT: ...she said on TV that the faucets were made of gold!

EK: Oh, well, that wasn't true. 

NT: No, it wasn't, but to say such a thing, that they're golden...

EK: So what about the American painting?

NT: Someone gifted it to him.

EK: Then? In '69?

NT: When the exhibition took place, in '69. Now, at the Revolution, some people went there because they thought there would be something to steal. And they found it in a box of works, they gathered them, they were taken from the museum.

EK: Yes, they were from ODAE, the Office for Documentation for Art Exhibitions. They were on inventory.

NT: And this was among them. 

EK: But you don't know directly from someone that Ceaușescu had gotten it, you didn't find out before '89 that he had supposedly gotten a painting as a gift.

NT: No. The painting was among the ones in that package...

EK: It's explainable. Okay. You saw that one and you know there's a possibility that one of the works exhibited at that time was gifted to Ceaușescu.

NT: I don't think it was part of the exhibition. On the side. I think they had it brought in especially, because it was a great artist...

(2)

Should I be honest? Should I speak honestly?

EK: Yes, please!

NT: Is it recording?

EK: It's recording!

NT: In '74 I had a scholarship to France.

EK: In '74 there was a scholarship... a personal one, okay.

NT: It lasted for two weeks.

EK: And did you see any American art in Paris in those two weeks?

NT: No. I wasn't interested at all, especially because I'd seen it in Bucharest.

(3)

When I saw the exhibition in '69, I had already seen a lot of images. When I got to college, I was interested in seeing what was being done that day, in those years, around. I wasn't interested in anything other than looking at images. I went to the lady in charge of the library at school and she told me 'Go to that box there and bring me what you want so I can give you the book.' 'Ma'am, I don't speak any languages.' 'I can't help you with that,' she told me. Some years before, I had some colleagues from Galați and I'd come visit them here. There was a little fence in front of the library, Baba was there and he was looking at Picassos. And plenty of students around. When I saw that, I said 'What's he looking at? It's something else.' They said 'He's looking, but we're not allowed to.' I wanted to study painting in Baba's class. And I said 'Fuck him, doesn't he show it to the students?' He was a boss in Moscow, he could do anything, he could have given all the books to students. Why? He was looking at them in front of the students. 

EK: Like he was free and they weren't. He thought himself a god, a hero. 

NT: But what kind of a man does that? A god?! And half a year later I went to the Union library. I went in, Ms. Vasiliade wasn't there. When she came in, she said 'What are you doing here? This isn't a bar.' I'd gone to school and the secretary had given me a piece of paper to go to Ms. Vasiliade with. And Ms. Vasiliade said to me: 'What book do you want?'. I said 'Would you let me browse these walls down to the end? I'll look at the images and put all the books I leaf through back in the same spot. And I'll write down the ones that interest me.' She allowed me to do that, it was twenty-something, thirty books I looked at closely. So in my second year of college, in 1970, when the American exhibition came, I was chock full of images. I passed over everything quickly. The only one that stopped me in my tracks among the Americans was Pollock. Not that I liked it, I realized how he did what he did. And then I took an interest in him, in what he was.

EK: Did you like his work in the exhibition? It was a big painting.

NT: Yes. I immediately said 'Every museum should have this.' Not this...

EK: Works of his.

NT: That lady, the rich one, Peggy Guggenheim, she would bring him paints and canvases. And they should send them out to all museums to have. I mean, it impressed me a lot. What did I see? A universe. He lived for 44 years. But he did the right things.

EK: The exhibition also featured sculptors. Do you remember any of them?

NT: Were there sculptors? It was just painting.

EK: Just painting? Then you must be referring to the '69 exhibition, that one was all painting. The one in 1970 had sculpture too. It had Louise Nevelson.

NT: I don't even know my own name. I never remember names.

EK: Anyway, you don't recall any sculpture. Only things to do with painting.

NT: I don't remember. I must have seen the painting one in '69.

(4)

Some of my colleagues were after sex, they didn't care about anything. My friends, they weren't interested, they saw what was on show, but damn them. 

EK: So there weren't many discussions about American art among your peers.

NT: 'What's with these doodles?', that was the discussion.

EK: So a rather dismissive studio culture.

NT: I wouldn't call it dismissive, it just was of no concern. If I think about it, in those last years, I was almost the only one in the library. All the others were art history students. There was also one guy who'd come from Cluj, Tănăsescu, a ceramicist, he went to Germany. When he came from Cluj and graduated school here, Tănăsescu started making dishes. They were lining up at his door; as soon as one was done, he'd sell it. But the shape of those dishes was extraordinary, they even had drawings on them. He came to the library too.

(5)

Everything I saw, images, they were only useful to me personally, not as a source to borrow from and use, but just to have the courage to do what I wanted. That was my credo.

EK: Encouragement, one could say.

NT: Encouragement for me. The library and everything I saw, it was all encouragement.

NT: Encouragement that would allow me to do what I wanted. Anything that came into my head.

(6)

An impact on me? Little, very little. This one, this man, had double the impact on me. The ideas he had!

EK: Pollock.

NT: Yes. And then everything is composed. I mean he knew how to do this job of composing. He didn't randomly let go...

EK: Of course, he didn't spill paint. He dripped it.

NT: Sure. Not only did he drip it, but he dripped it right. And then it was on the entire surface, in a composition. With musicality. He was good at this job... Especially given that, what? Drugs, alcohol... They're all alcoholics. It's a pity he died. 

(7)

Well, it was brought here.

EK: So was it allowed or encouraged?

NT: How was it brought? Through relations, Ceaușescu and...

EK: Yes, political relations. There was an economic and political background for it.

NT: Sure. And it was possible, no one fought for it, there were no street revolts for keeping it open for seven hours...

(8)

At that time, you could say anything. A bit earlier, you weren't even allowed to paint with the palette knife. The Russian commissar would come around and check on you. There was this thing, there were truly forbidden things at that time. Now, you could do whatever you wanted.

(9)

It's possible it might have contributed to painting. Even though the painters didn't go to the library, they did see this exhibition.

EK: How do you know many of them saw it? Did you talk to some of them about it?

NT: All the artists were saying it's extraordinary, in studios. The artists of the time. They were all completely in awe. Maybe not all towards Pollock. I would try to convince some of them: 'This is the one I liked best!' I did like him. And I wish every museum had one of his works. If I spoke English, I would have gone to America immediately, a lot sooner, I have friends there; I would have rented a big old warehouse, I'd have gone in there and turned it into a studio.